I stick with "those covers are HOT" as my point. i don't think they need to be degrading to be hot? & as a rule i don't think they are.

also, those guys are nuts.

Maybe he's saying Catwoman is porn intended for a niche audiance? That actually describes superhero comics pretty well.

Not the ones I prefer to read. I own enough porn to be able to tell the difference...

That was unwarrantedly harsh of me.

Forgive the intrusion, came in from WFA. I saw the post in question and had to bite tongue seriously about it. Basically he's saying since yaoi is written by women for women and depicts men as sexual objects, by comparison women shouldn't get upset at comics (which I suppose he is implying is by men for men) because of how women are portrayed.

Nevermind that comics were not originally written as porn, (and to be honest, a lot of yaoi was/is). Or the fact that there aren't any lead female characters in the yaoi genre, so the males in question are actually written and treated as both genders, good and bad. But maybe that's just how I'm interpreting it.

Again, sorry for the intrusion.

No worries. I expect to get WFA guests whenever I poke at the "usual suspects"...

Also that it's likely that yaoi and yaoi fandom is, at least in part, a response to the whole porny-fanservice thing in comics...

I'm just wondering where he's getting this "my" sexuality crap from. Especially since he goes on at length about he's totally straight, yo.

It's not about male sexuality, it's about gay male sexuality. That would be like me saying, "As a woman, I'm not offended by cheesy lesbian vampire porn!" Which is great, but I'm not a lesbian. Or a vampire. Either way, I really shouldn't be positioning myself to speak for all lesbians everywhere if I'm not one.

And wasn't there just a big brouhaha about how yaoi denigrates gay men linked from WFA? It was like, a couple posts linked over the past two or three days. Meh, too lazy to go look for it now.

So, as a woman, ARE you offended by cheesy lesbian porn? Does some male fantasy about a couple of hot girls rolling around somehow mean more or less to you than some more heterosexual scenario?

It sounds like what you're saying is that if you're straight, it doesn't make sense to get upset about how gay people of the same gender are depicted. By that logic, all someone would have to do to make any supposed sexist depiction of women a-ok to the straight women is to just make all the female characters lesbians.

I expect a certain amount of cluelessness from some folks, but I thought YOU were supposed to be sharp enough to follow along...

I expect a certain amount of cluelessness from some folks, but I thought YOU were supposed to be sharp enough to follow along...

Stay classy, Mouse!

It sounds like what you're saying is that if you're straight, it doesn't make sense to get upset about how gay people of the same gender are depicted.

No. What I'm saying is, "I'm NOT offended and you shouldn't be either" is a dumb thing to say when you're not a part of the group being depicted. That is the very definition of privilege.

Ah.

1) So it's just fine if you ARE offended and not part of the group, but not if you're NOT offended and not part of the group?

2) You mentioned WFA posts criticizing yaoi. I don't expect you to go look them up, but were the posts, to your recollection, written by gay men or by other "groups"? Do those posters have the right to be offended ON BEHALF of some other group, even when the group itself seems to take little or no offense?

3) Even if I am straight, I'm still male. Am I somehow not part of the larger inclusive group of males, then? Do I not have the right to be offended at depictions which make men unrealistically effeminate?

As an internet troll, I want that definition of effeminate to die an un mourned death. We all have our dreams.

I'm all for dreams. For my own part, I quest for a day when someone's dreams aren't considered an overt oppression of someone else in the real world.

When more people's dreams are out there in the real world, we'll be a lot closer.

1) That's a huge oversimplification. Look, an important part of being an ally (whether a feminist ally, anti-racist ally, GLBT ally, or whatever) is a willingness to speak up when you see something problematic, even if, yes, you're speaking on behalf of someone else. However, if a member of that group shows up and says "Well, actually...." then you'd better damn well listen to them, because the opinions of the targeted group do, believe it or not, carry more weight than yours. For a beautiful example of this happening in the WFAsphere, look at StormHairGate from last year. So speaking up on behalf of someone else? Sometimes okay. It depends on your willingness to LISTEN TO the members of the group that you're attempting to ally yourself with. However, telling others NOT to be offended on behalf of someone else? Never okay.

2) Gay men. There was also a huge brouhaha over at fanthropology last year about gay men criticizing yaoi, too (and sharing horror stories about how they've been harassed at conventions by yaoi fangirls). And that's just off the top of my head. There's a lot more on the net if you'll just look around and Google.

3) You have every right to be offended. But the tone and wording of your post comes across as silly when you talk about "my" sexuality even though you're straight. It's not straight men that are depicted as unrealistically effeminate in yaoi. ;)

"It's not straight men that are depicted as unrealistically effeminate in yaoi."

My impression of yaoi (which, granted, isn't at all extensive) is that there are actually very few straight men depicted at all, if ever. So far, any straight male characters I've seen are ciphers and scenery, like a guy who runs a grocery store, or a relative of a main character. They aren't the object of the fantasy, they're just there to prop the fantasy up a bit. If one could point to any random yaoi comic and find a truly prominent character that wasn't gay and also not prettified, then I might give the gay/not-gay differentiation more weight.

But by the reasoning you're giving, if, say, there were a slew of more gratuitous cheesecake covers and comics of the new Batwoman, then straight women would have less ground to protest upon, unless they got the go-ahead from actual lesbians. If lesbians actually did approve of Gratuitous Batwoman, straight women couldn't complain much, since the character is a lesbian, and thus the depiction isn't actually any kind of affront to them or their sexuality.

"It depends on your willingness to LISTEN TO the members of the group that you're attempting to ally yourself with."

UGH.

Too many people use the phrase "listen to" when they actually mean things like "defer to" or "obey". It is quite possible to listen to someone and still not agree with their reasoning...

Anyway, if gay men are indeed protesting yaoi, then that only bolsters the whole point of bringing it up.

For one thing, it reinforces my contention that yaoi is primarily "for" women (although one commenter on my own blog said some gay men do read the stuff), and as such, even though it depicts gay activity, the main purpose of it is to titillate *heterosexual* women, just as some guys might find lesbians making out to be arousing.

It has been my impression that there's quite a few fangirls out there that get upset by, say, bodypainted Wonder Woman on Playboy, but at the same time they'll openly lust over some yaoi porn (or even gay subtext in mainstream comics) without seeing any inconsistency in that position. Regardless of the sexual preference of the characters depicted, if one example objectifies women, the other objectifies men, and to be consistent, one should either condemn both equally or let both pass.

If you (meaning anyone out there) do indeed treat both instances equally, then whether or not I agree with your stance, I'll respect your opinion more than if you condemn one but give the other a pass. That inconsistency, to me, reduces the weight of your words, and gives me the impression of an unthinking following of dogma and obedience to the outrage of others over any personal, deeply-felt belief in the inherent wrongness of one thing or another.

No Mousey, one commenter on your site said MEN read yaoi. They made no reference to the sexuality of those men...

I'll quote, Lurkey:

"Heck, I swap yaoi titles with my guy friends all the time and if the comments on which characters THEY WANT RELATIONS WITH is any indication they find yaoi even more interesting than I do."

Capitalized emphasis mine, and that's about as clear as any indicator I can think of that says the men are gay, or at least bi.

It has been my impression that there's quite a few fangirls out there that get upset by, say, bodypainted Wonder Woman on Playboy, but at the same time they'll openly lust over some yaoi porn (or even gay subtext in mainstream comics) without seeing any inconsistency in that position.


Well, this ties into what I was saying at your blog, Mousey. I like sexy Catwoman covers, and statues, and yaoi, and this, and that. But lines can still be crossed. Being Pro Pr0n doesn't mean never having to say that it's sexist.

Being offended by one trashy image, or some trashy treatments is not one's opinion of erotica or cheesecake as a whole. If none of these yaoi fans have ever, ever been offended by anything that has happened in yaoi, or willing to engage with those who are offended by it, then by all means, call them out.

I notice a great deal of "I'm fine with porn, but this offends me for reasons of x y and z" in the blogosphere, relating to the WW incident. That's not an inconsistent position in itself.

"But lines can still be crossed. Being Pro Pr0n doesn't mean never having to say that it's sexist."

Sure, that's fair enough. I just think some people are willing to bend where they draw that line when it's something they like on the basis of just that they like it, not because of any inherent merit or lack thereof to whatever it is they're bending their standards for.

And then there's the question of what different people think is the proper method for dealing with things that do cross those lines...

I think so too, and I think you'd do a better job getting your ideas taken seriously if you didn't generalize so much. Deal with specific arguments. I know that as a person who's done a lot of defending of sexuality in comics, and a lot of defending of there being nothing wrong with "aiming" them at men, that I haven't been assaulted by any of these rabid, frothing, female comics fans that are supposedly out there (to judge by some people's statements.) I think this has more than a lot to do with putting my opinions out there without neccessarily denigrating others, and with being very, very cautious about fighting "strawfeminists."

In my experience, feminist comics fans are very open to other points of view. May I suggest declaring yourself a conservative feminist in NON fandom feminist circles and watching the fur fly, if you doubt this? ;)